For clarifacation please see the USCF rulebook on the prizes. The rules regarding this prizes fund are 32c4 and 32E.
According to the USCF rules 1st $250 and 2nd $150 are guaranteed. Therefore of the $1200 prize fund $400 MUST be paid on, leaving $800 of projected prizes fund based on 50 players.
32c4 states that if the turnout is not that of what the prize fund is based on it MUST be paid proportionally to the turnout.
-AND-
Because the prize fund is greater than $500, half of the $800 must be paid out as advertised for class prizes. Thus a min. of $400 will be paid out as class prizes.
To answer your question "why does it say "A-E prizes based on 50 players"? I am not the organizer, but I assume that this is done to allot more money to the classes which have a greater turnout. Thus if there are 20 class C players and four class A players it would allow to pay out more prizes for class C players. A drawback of listing the each class prize is that each MUST be paid as advertised. If there are two class A players then both must get the prizes and their entry fee's will not cover the prizes. Then 20 class C players show up more than covering their prizes with entry fee's, should the class C players entry fee be redistributed to class A and any other class that did not have a good turnout or should they get 3 or 4 Class C prizes?
I do not know the answer to the question, it is subjective, but according to the USCF rules this is just another way to advertise the prizes and has been done for some time. Count on at least $400 distributed as class prizes.
As I mentioned in the previous post, by advertising that there is a $1200 prize fund with, -400 for place prizes, so $800.
Also advertising A-E based on 50 players, does not mean that it will be split evenly among the classes, but of course 1st for class C would not be higher than 1st for class A.
Thus Class A may only have a 1st prize while a class with many more will have 1st and 2nd or the other way around.
32c4 also uses the word "proportionally" thus:
In your example with 4 class A players there would be $560 split among the classes. Since 35 people with 4 in class will leave the other sections at roughly 6 or so people(assuming that other sections are evenly distributed.
35/50= 70% of prizes must be paid out
.70 * 800 = 560
ASSUME it is split evenly among all classes, then class A has a $112 prize fund.
*NOTE I am not the organizer and the $112 is not an offcial figure, but an estimate based in the information you were asking about, based on my knowledge of what is required to be paid out by USCF rules. Again the way it is advertising does not force the organizer to distribute the prize to each section equally he may do so proportionally based on number of entries in each class.
Here are two pretty good prize explanations from the USCF forum site. The 2nd guy, while calling the prize arrangement "shadowy," at least gets the math right and recognizes that there are expenses involved with running a tournament.
Nobody really makes money on local chess tournaments - not the hotels, not the TD's, not the organizers, not even the players, especially those who come away with a 50-50, or less, win/loss record.
No, local chess tournaments are for those who love the game, and who love playing the game - even if they lose more than they win.
It is the dance of the pieces. The mental wrestling with someone RIGHT THERE, sitting across from you. Playing the perfect game until POOF! one simple mistake, and it all falls apart.
Or better, that moment when everything works perfectly, and all those wierd little pieces move in just the right way, and you beat someone everyone in the hall thought you couldn't.
It is "the best of times, and the worst of times," rolled into a single day, or weekend, for most of us.
I suspect those who are worried about how much money they should, or could, win, forget they must first win. And win most, if not all, their games against players with the same goal.
For the rest of us, it is still about the thrill of the game.
Seeing the magic on the same board, and in the same game, that most non-chess playing people say is the "most boring game they have ever seen."
There was very nearly NO BADGER OPEN this year. After 38 years. Once that happens, it is more likely there won't be one the next year, or the year after that.
And pretty soon there is no more local tournaments for those of us who just love playing the game. Win or lose. Rating jump or decline. Money or no money. It's the opportunity to play the game we love.
Guy #1 "A total prize fund of $800 is available for class payouts, assuming 10% of entries is master and expert and total entries are reached with an even entry distribution this would give 45 players or 9 players per class with each class prize of $160, this would probably be handled as a first of $100 and second of $60 is each class."
"By not advertizing a first and second for each class the organizer can adjust the class prizes so that if only 5 A players are entered they could award just one A prize instead of two, and if 15 D players players show up they could give a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards."
"This not only prevents the top players from taking most of the money, but rewards those who actually support the event."
"This is not a tournament about money, I can make more than $100 working a half day on Saturday and having the rest of the weekend to enjoy. Nor is it about the cost versus payout as all players would spend money for travel and food and maybe lodging regardless of their rating, this is a tournament about having fun and if you cannot play in an event about that why are you playing?"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy #2 "If the tournament really was about having fun, why are there any cash prizes? If you want to have just a fun tournament, offer low entry fees and trophies or some donated non-cash prizes. But I expect you want some people to show up. Players aren't interested in how much money you can make on a Saturday, they are interested in how much money they can make."
"Tournaments without guarantees and that have shadowy based on prize structures turn players off. The event's prizes should be transparent and calculable."
"It appears, based on the numbers given that expenses are $550 and prizes will be $1200 or around 68% of total advance entry fees."
"Don't worry, players will wonder and ask where the $550 is going to. I expect there are fees for playing room rental, $60 for rating fees, TD fee, and miscellaneous expenses for scoresheets, pens/pencils, etc." ----------------------------------
There you have it. Two pretty good breakdowns on how and why you would try to offer cash prizes for events that you have no idea whether or not anyone, let alone enough people to cover the costs, will even show up for.
First you figure out your rough costs, then you figure out how many players you need to show up if you give back 65-70% of the entry fees in prizes.
The math is simple, the research and work to bring it all together is the hard part.
Especially if you are doing it out of love for the game itself, and the chance to provide an opportunity for anyone to come and play. Young or old, black, white, brown, yellow or purple, healthy or handicapped, whether you speak the same language or not. It's the chance to play the game that is the most equal and level playing field.
Some have also questioned and looked down on the "Scholastic Sections" over the OPEN/RESERVE arrangement. We wanted to have an OPEN/RESERVE too, but there wasn't enough money.
Every chess player was young once. And for those who think scholastic players are somehow beneath them, or not really worthy of playing them, I would like to point out that some of the best chess players in the state still ride school buses.
They earned their ratings the hard way. By playing. And study. And practice. And playing some more.
And, like young gun fighters, many of them are waiting to play any one willing to sit across the board from them.
Not in the Scholastic Sections - but in the BADGER OPEN's OPEN SECTION, where right now, young players outnumber adults.
Sorry, for writing so much, but for the good of WI chess, these kinds of issues need to be aired and understood by players and organizers alike.
FM Alexander Betaneli(3 time WI state champ) and NM Erik Santarius (current WI state champ) will be playing a training match at the Badger Open! The time control will be G/90 with 30 sec increment to prepare for the Continental Championship in Boca Raton, FL in November.
What are the class prizes?
ReplyDeleteClass prizes will be based on the number of players in each class.
ReplyDeleteThe why does it say "A-E prizes based on 50 plyers"
ReplyDeleteWhat prizes?
For clarifacation please see the USCF rulebook on the prizes. The rules regarding this prizes fund are 32c4 and 32E.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the USCF rules 1st $250 and 2nd $150 are guaranteed. Therefore of the $1200 prize fund $400 MUST be paid on, leaving $800 of projected prizes fund based on 50 players.
32c4 states that if the turnout is not that of what the prize fund is based on it MUST be paid proportionally to the turnout.
-AND-
Because the prize fund is greater than $500, half of the $800 must be paid out as advertised for class prizes. Thus a min. of $400 will be paid out as class prizes.
To answer your question "why does it say "A-E prizes based on 50 players"? I am not the organizer, but I assume that this is done to allot more money to the classes which have a greater turnout. Thus if there are 20 class C players and four class A players it would allow to pay out more prizes for class C players. A drawback of listing the each class prize is that each MUST be paid as advertised. If there are two class A players then both must get the prizes and their entry fee's will not cover the prizes. Then 20 class C players show up more than covering their prizes with entry fee's, should the class C players entry fee be redistributed to class A and any other class that did not have a good turnout or should they get 3 or 4 Class C prizes?
I do not know the answer to the question, it is subjective, but according to the USCF rules this is just another way to advertise the prizes and has been done for some time. Count on at least $400 distributed as class prizes.
Ashish Vaja
So there is 800 in class prizes based on 50.
ReplyDeleteSo if 35 show up and there are 4 "A" players. The total prize fund for "A" players is $64?
As I mentioned in the previous post, by advertising that there is a $1200 prize fund with, -400 for place prizes, so $800.
ReplyDeleteAlso advertising A-E based on 50 players, does not mean that it will be split evenly among the classes, but of course 1st for class C would not be higher than 1st for class A.
Thus Class A may only have a 1st prize while a class with many more will have 1st and 2nd or the other way around.
32c4 also uses the word "proportionally" thus:
In your example with 4 class A players there would be $560 split among the classes. Since 35 people with 4 in class will leave the other sections at roughly 6 or so people(assuming that other sections are evenly distributed.
35/50= 70% of prizes must be paid out
.70 * 800 = 560
ASSUME it is split evenly among all classes, then class A has a $112 prize fund.
*NOTE I am not the organizer and the $112 is not an offcial figure, but an estimate based in the information you were asking about, based on my knowledge of what is required to be paid out by USCF rules. Again the way it is advertising does not force the organizer to distribute the prize to each section equally he may do so proportionally based on number of entries in each class.
Ashish Vaja
Here are two pretty good prize explanations from the USCF forum site. The 2nd guy, while calling the prize arrangement "shadowy," at least gets the math right and recognizes that there are expenses involved with running a tournament.
ReplyDeleteNobody really makes money on local chess tournaments - not the hotels, not the TD's, not the
organizers, not even the players, especially those who come away with a 50-50, or less, win/loss record.
No, local chess tournaments are for those who love the game, and who love playing the game - even if they lose more than they win.
It is the dance of the pieces. The mental wrestling with someone RIGHT THERE, sitting across from you. Playing the perfect game until POOF! one simple mistake, and it all falls apart.
Or better, that moment when everything works perfectly, and all those wierd little pieces move in just the right way, and you beat someone everyone in the hall thought you couldn't.
It is "the best of times, and the worst of times," rolled into a single day, or weekend, for most of us.
I suspect those who are worried about how much money they should, or could, win, forget they must first win. And win most, if not all, their games against players with the same goal.
For the rest of us, it is still about the thrill of the game.
Seeing the magic on the same board, and in the same game, that most non-chess playing people say is the "most boring game they have ever seen."
There was very nearly NO BADGER OPEN this year. After 38 years. Once that happens, it is more likely there won't be one the next year, or the year after that.
And pretty soon there is no more local tournaments for those of us who just love playing the game. Win or lose. Rating jump or decline. Money or no money. It's the opportunity to play the game we love.
Guy #1
"A total prize fund of $800 is available for class payouts, assuming 10% of entries is master and expert and total entries are reached with an even entry distribution this would give 45 players or 9 players per class with each class prize of $160, this would probably be handled as a first of $100 and second of $60 is each class."
"By not advertizing a first and second for each class the organizer can adjust the class prizes so that if only 5 A players are entered they could award just one A prize instead of two, and if 15 D players players show up they could give a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards."
"This not only prevents the top players from taking most of the money, but rewards those who actually support the event."
"This is not a tournament about money, I can make more than $100 working a half day on Saturday and having the rest of the weekend to enjoy. Nor is it about the cost versus payout as all players would spend money for travel and food and maybe lodging regardless of their rating, this is a tournament about having fun and if you cannot play in an event about that why are you playing?"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy #2
"If the tournament really was about having fun, why are there any cash prizes? If you want to have just a fun tournament, offer low entry fees and trophies or some donated non-cash prizes. But I expect you want some people to show up. Players aren't interested in how much money you can make on a Saturday, they are interested in how much money they can make."
"Tournaments without guarantees and that have shadowy based on prize structures turn players off. The event's prizes should be transparent and calculable."
"It appears, based on the numbers given that expenses are $550 and prizes will be $1200 or around 68% of total advance entry fees."
"Don't worry, players will wonder and ask where the $550 is going to. I expect there are fees for playing room rental, $60 for rating fees, TD fee, and miscellaneous expenses for scoresheets, pens/pencils, etc."
----------------------------------
There you have it. Two pretty good breakdowns on how and why you would try to offer cash prizes for events that you have no idea whether or not anyone, let alone enough people to cover the costs, will even show up for.
First you figure out your rough costs, then you figure out how many players you need to show up if you give back 65-70% of the entry fees in prizes.
The math is simple, the research and work to bring it all together is the hard part.
Especially if you are doing it out of love for the game itself, and the chance to provide an opportunity for anyone to come and play. Young or old, black, white, brown, yellow or purple, healthy or handicapped, whether you speak the same language or not. It's the chance to play the game that is the most equal and level playing field.
Some have also questioned and looked down on the "Scholastic Sections" over the OPEN/RESERVE
arrangement. We wanted to have an OPEN/RESERVE too, but there wasn't enough money.
Every chess player was young once. And for those who think scholastic players are somehow beneath them, or not really worthy of playing them, I would like to point out that some of the best chess players in the state still ride school buses.
They earned their ratings the hard way. By playing. And study. And practice. And playing some more.
And, like young gun fighters, many of them are waiting to play
any one willing to sit across the board from them.
Not in the Scholastic Sections - but in the BADGER OPEN's OPEN SECTION, where right now, young players outnumber adults.
Sorry, for writing so much, but for the good of WI chess, these kinds of issues need to be aired and understood by players and organizers alike.
- Gregory Reese, Sr.
Gregory,
ReplyDeleteYou have won the prize for longest comment!
Chess Guy
Consider going to the Northern Open in St Paul this weekend. Over 50 preregistered, with two 2400s. 6 rounds, G/90.
ReplyDeleteBREAKING NEWS:
ReplyDeleteFM Alexander Betaneli(3 time WI state champ) and NM Erik Santarius (current WI state champ) will be playing a training match at the Badger Open! The time control will be G/90 with 30 sec increment to prepare for the Continental Championship in Boca Raton, FL in November.
Don't miss the excitement!
A minor correction: time control will be 30/60, SD/15 + 30 second inrcement per move. We hope to present spectators with some terrific chess!
ReplyDeleteAlex Betaneli
The event is rated if anyone is interested. Congrats to Paul Fricano for taking clear first place!
ReplyDeleteAshish Vaja
Congratulations to Paul!!!
ReplyDeleteCongrats Paul!
ReplyDeleteJohn Veech
Hey John,
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to you on Sunday?
Unfortunately, I was too sick to continue playing.
ReplyDeleteJohn Veech